Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder knew Deborah Vance and Ava Daniels were moving beyond their familiar sparring in Hacks season 4. Smart called the conflict “a darker turn,” and said she trusted the writers even though she was not sure at first how audiences would respond. For both actors, the risk was part of pushing the relationship into new territory.
Why season 4 felt like a risk
In an April 24, 2025 interview with Entertainment Weekly, Smart described the season’s conflict as more than the usual back-and-forth between Deborah and Ava. “Well, this is a little more than sparring this year. I think part of the enjoyment is that we realized we were taking it to a new level. Not positive that it was going to go over with our audiences, but I had faith that it would. But it was definitely a darker turn that we were taking.”
Her confidence rested on the writing, not on certainty about audience reaction. Smart put the creative gamble succinctly: “No risk, no reward. That’s why this show has been doing so well.” That is Smart’s explanation of the show’s approach, rather than a measured claim about what caused its success.
What keeps Deborah and Ava connected
For Einbinder, humor is the bond beneath the hostility: “It’s I think their sense of humor. I think it’s the level they connect on. It is a frequency that few people can tap into. It’s like a language that only they speak.” Their jokes can be cutting, but Einbinder sees that shared comic sensibility as a private channel between them.
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Smart connected the pair’s closeness to their strained relationships with their own mothers and daughters. In that reading, Deborah and Ava’s bond is not simply affection or rivalry; they recognize something in each other that their other relationships do not provide.
How the actors approach their scenes
Einbinder said that for many scenes, she and Smart did not rehearse extensively. They would begin with cameras up and work through the scene in the moment. She also credited director Lucia Aniello with having a significant influence on their performances. Einbinder’s account describes an approach used for many scenes, not a rule for every shoot.
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Season 4 moments discussed in the interview
The conversation points to several story elements that put the changing relationship in context:
- Deborah takes a late-night hosting job, with Ava working as her head writer.
- Their practical jokes escalate into more direct confrontation.
- A trip to Vegas becomes one of the season’s settings.
- Carol Burnett appears as herself.
- Ava has a throuple storyline.
These are examples raised in the interview, not a complete episode-by-episode account of the season.
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The Emmy context—and Smart’s personal recollection
The interview took place after Hacks won the 2024 Outstanding Comedy Series Emmy. Smart said she was not surprised by the win; Einbinder said she was surprised and pleased.
Smart also recalled that her husband died during the show’s first season, when she had five days of work remaining. She said the production offered her the option to pause or spread the work out, and that she chose to finish at the time. That is Smart’s account of the choices available to her and the decision she made.
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